Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby kadani » Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:46 pm

Sounds unusual, in a good way. :)
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Dedalvs » Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:27 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:I like the scheme where the stress occurs on the syllable preceding the last-most consonant of the stem. Components of a compound word retain their intrinsic stress. Perhaps the non-final components' stress is reduced to secondary.

koze
kilsua
manil
tidzemanil


That sounds good. Essentially, this would make word-final vowels extrametrical, and would put stress on the second-to-last syllable unless the last syllable is heavy, which is cool. The only place where it would get weird is if a word ended in three or more vowels, but that seems highly unlikely.
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Sun Apr 04, 2010 4:22 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:
alavda-isere wrote:LOL. Very amusing :)
At any rate, something that's occurred to me as I've been going through the words in the word association thread, and there's one thing that falls under this topic that we haven't really discussed: how are we going to handle stress? I don't really have a preference myself, and I don't consider it my strong point, so I don't quite know all of the issues involved.

I like the scheme where the stress occurs on the syllable preceding the last-most consonant of the stem. Components of a compound word retain their intrinsic stress. Perhaps the non-final components' stress is reduced to secondary.

koze
kilsua
manil
tidzemanil


So penultimate stress on the stem, with primary stress on the terminal stem-morpheme reduced to secondary stress in compounds?
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Uh-Oh » Sun Apr 04, 2010 5:40 pm

Matthew Turnbull wrote:So penultimate stress on the stem, with primary stress on the terminal stem-morpheme reduced to secondary stress in compounds?


Stress in non-terminal stems in compounds reduced from primary to secondary. Not really critical.
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:43 am

whoops, must have read something backwards :oops:
ave matyu at vijeréiisoblarre ayna
saluton mi nomas mateo kaj lingvokreas mi
je me nomme Matthew Turnbull et je fais la glossopoésie
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby alexfink » Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:27 am

Dangerous thing, to touch the phonology at this stage, but anyway:

Are there any instances of initial dj- yet? I don't note any. I propose that Ken. might have a constraint against initial dj. I also wonder whether there might be a constraint *gi (in roots, at least). I have a reason for suggesting this.

(And, as long as I'm stirring up these waters, I'd be at least as happy to have initial ng as to lack it -- not that there's anything wrong with it, just aesthetics. Can't tell from reading the thread if this issue is to be regarded settled.)
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby alavda-isere » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:57 am

alexfink wrote:Dangerous thing, to touch the phonology at this stage, but anyway:

Are there any instances of initial dj- yet? I don't note any. I propose that Ken. might have a constraint against initial dj. I also wonder whether there might be a constraint *gi (in roots, at least). I have a reason for suggesting this.


I don't happen to know the answer on hand, but I do know there is initial tx. I'm fine with your above constraints, but I'm wondering, is there any naturalistic reason to disallow a voiced affricate while allowing its voiceless counterpart? If not, then maybe we can tweak the words with initial tx, as I like the linguistic complexity that this creates :)

(And, as long as I'm stirring up these waters, I'd be at least as happy to have initial ng as to lack it -- not that there's anything wrong with it, just aesthetics. Can't tell from reading the thread if this issue is to be regarded settled.)


We seem to be divided on this, actually. I like initial ng, but I'm guessing others do not because they have trouble producing it, which is an understandable reason for not wanting it (I'd never put palatal stops in my conlang for that reason... I can obviously pronounce [j], a palatal approximant, yet the stops at that point trip my tongue up. I'm odd :-P )
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:22 pm

According to my database we have no word initial dj, but we syllable initial dj, we have also
txate,tea(n)

txensa,sugar(n)
txulun,hunger(n)
that's all of the word initial tx that we have.

as for word initial ng, i think that i have no problem with it, I think that we could simply have some dialect with ng->m/#_. Problem solved.
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je me nomme Matthew Turnbull et je fais la glossopoésie
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby alavda-isere » Thu May 06, 2010 9:48 pm

I was bored at work today, so I decided to go through the words in the lexicon list and do a rough letter/syllable frequency thing. I unfortunately didn't save it to where I could get to it when I got home, but there's something interesting that I do remember: as far as I can tell, with the exception of /ʒ/ (which only appears in two words, one of which is derived from the other), none of the words we've invented so far have voiced fricatives as codas. As soon as saw this, I was reminded of a phonological rule I learned about in one of my linguistics classes. Basically, some languages have this rule that voiced consonants become voiceless at the end of a word. It might have just been voiced stops, but since we don't have stops as codas (except for one morpheme that slipped through, the suffix -ik), that wouldn't apply. I was thinking maybe we could have a phonological rule in which voiced fricatives become voiceless at the end of a word. However, we could (and should, to make this interesting) coin words that have voiced stops underlyingly (and would be written <j> in the native orthography/romanization).
For example, to use the one root with /ʒ/ at the end:

baloj (noise, clatter) /baloʒ/ -> [baloʃ]

BUT

balojam /baloʒam/ -> [baloʒam]

(Note: I took -m to be the plurosingular, but I couldn't find what to do if I needed a vowel, so I just inserted one :)).

Thoughts?
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Thu May 13, 2010 12:00 pm

Since it arises organically from the lexicon, without the need to change any roots, I like it.
ave matyu at vijeréiisoblarre ayna
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