Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby kadani » Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:18 pm

My capitalisation habits are a mess, no matter which language I write in. I tend to like the German habit of capitalizing nouns for readability (IMNSCO it makes it easier to skim through a text), but I have not used it in rejistanian (I actually went wawy from not capitalising anything there for readability's sake and capitalize the first letter in a sentence and propoer nouns).

OTOH, I can imagine this happening if the sentence break was easier... like if the conscript used a dash as full stop (with appropriate spacing) and they used the same in Latin alphabet. does that make sense?
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Rejistanian word of the day
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:19 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:I think <x> is pretty in the role of [S]. Portuguese and a number of other languages use it that way.

Or, contrariwise, <zh> is very rarely used for [Z]. English is the only language I can think of that does that.

I'm liking the orthography. Mostly transparent, with a few "different", but sensible, conventions.


I agree that <x> : /S/ is cool, and on a side note, I also like <zh> : /Z/. Also Ojibwe uses <zh> for that too, and where does english use <zh>?
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Uh-Oh » Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:34 pm

Matthew Turnbull wrote:
Uh-Oh wrote:I think <x> is pretty in the role of [S]. Portuguese and a number of other languages use it that way.

Or, contrariwise, <zh> is very rarely used for [Z]. English is the only language I can think of that does that.

I'm liking the orthography. Mostly transparent, with a few "different", but sensible, conventions.


I agree that <x> : /S/ is cool, and on a side note, I also like <zh> : /Z/. Also Ojibwe uses <zh> for that too, and where does english use <zh>?

English doesn't actually ever use <zh> for any real English words, but often uses it to represent pronunciation of /Z/ to lay-people.

The reason I like the orthography as-is is because with we can build the affricates /dZ/ and /tS/ from existing letters; we don't have to come up with separate letters for them. Also, because Basque and Lojban do it that way. :-) And it's nice and parallel:

/s/ = <s>
/z/ = <z>
/ts/ = <ts>
/dz/ = <dz>
/S/ = <x> (Portuguese-style)
/Z/ = <j> (also Portuguese-style)
/tS/ = <tx> (Basque-style? COOOOL!)
/dZ/ = <dj> (Russian-style)
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Dedalvs » Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:08 pm

kadani wrote:I personally think that this would result in a non-improvement. It just looks worse.


It's just a romanization system. It's about what's clearer and most easily understood by the users, and here the de facto language is English. Since there is no orthography yet, an English-style romanization system seems best.

(Incidentally, when we are ready for an orthography, I'd love to take a crack at it. I can make an accompanying font.)
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Uh-Oh » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:09 am

Dedalvs wrote:
kadani wrote:I personally think that this would result in a non-improvement. It just looks worse.


It's just a romanization system. It's about what's clearer and most easily understood by the users, and here the de facto language is English. Since there is no orthography yet, an English-style romanization system seems best.

(Incidentally, when we are ready for an orthography, I'd love to take a crack at it. I can make an accompanying font.)


Oh. I actually thought of this as THE orthography, not merely as a romanisation system. And it looks nice to me; Europeanesque but a bit of a mix.

If this is a romanisation based on English-as-English, then /i/ needs to be spelled <ee> lest it be mispronounced as /aj/, and /u/ as <oo> for fear of <ju> or some other possibilities. And possibly /a/ as <o>, for fear of /æ/.
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Dedalvs » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:20 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:Oh. I actually thought of this as THE orthography, not merely as a romanisation system. And it looks nice to me; Europeanesque but a bit of a mix.


Oh, I hope not. How dull. :(

Uh-Oh wrote:If this is a romanisation based on English-as-English, then /i/ needs to be spelled <ee> lest it be mispronounced as /aj/, and /u/ as <oo> for fear of <ju> or some other possibilities. And possibly /a/ as <o>, for fear of /æ/.


No, no, no; don't be silly.

Actually, what I'd like to see is a standard for all romanization. It'd have to be gradable, to account for different phonologies, but it would be readable by anyone. So if you had a five vowel system with [a], [e], [i], [o] and [u] they were always spelled "a", "e", "i", "o" and "u". If a fronted series was added, they'd always be spelled ü, ö and ä; if there was a back unrounded series, they'd be ï and ë; if there were lax vowels and all the opposite rounding, a different (but specific) set of diacritics would come into play, etc.

This, of course, would only hold for romanization systems. If, for example, one were creating an a posteriori IE language, and its orthography utilized the Roman alphabet, then it should look however the designer feels it should look.

But I recognize this will never, ever happen. Oh well.
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Uh-Oh » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:44 pm

Dedalvs wrote:
Uh-Oh wrote:Oh. I actually thought of this as THE orthography, not merely as a romanisation system. And it looks nice to me; Europeanesque but a bit of a mix.


Oh, I hope not. How dull. :(

So... in the meantime (while waiting for a native script to be created), to avoid all the dullness, couldn't we have a romanisation with just a bit of spice? Pretty please? :) I do so like <x> for /S/!
Dedalvs wrote:
Uh-Oh wrote:If this is a romanisation based on English-as-English, then /i/ needs to be spelled <ee> lest it be mispronounced as /aj/, and /u/ as <oo> for fear of <ju> or some other possibilities. And possibly /a/ as <o>, for fear of /æ/.


No, no, no; don't be silly.

You have no idea how hard that is for me. :oops:
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Dedalvs » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:53 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:
Dedalvs wrote:
Uh-Oh wrote:Oh. I actually thought of this as THE orthography, not merely as a romanisation system. And it looks nice to me; Europeanesque but a bit of a mix.


Oh, I hope not. How dull. :(

So... in the meantime (while waiting for a native script to be created), to avoid all the dullness, couldn't we have a romanisation with just a bit of spice? Pretty please? :) I do so like <x> for /S/!


Worry not! I'd say the romanization is pretty much set now.

Uh-Oh wrote:
Dedalvs wrote:No, no, no; don't be silly.

You have no idea how hard that is for me. :oops:


:D
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby alavda-isere » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:01 pm

LOL. Very amusing :)
At any rate, something that's occurred to me as I've been going through the words in the word association thread, and there's one thing that falls under this topic that we haven't really discussed: how are we going to handle stress? I don't really have a preference myself, and I don't consider it my strong point, so I don't quite know all of the issues involved.
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Re: Phonological and Orthographical Issues Continued

Postby Uh-Oh » Sun Apr 04, 2010 8:12 am

alavda-isere wrote:LOL. Very amusing :)
At any rate, something that's occurred to me as I've been going through the words in the word association thread, and there's one thing that falls under this topic that we haven't really discussed: how are we going to handle stress? I don't really have a preference myself, and I don't consider it my strong point, so I don't quite know all of the issues involved.

I like the scheme where the stress occurs on the syllable preceding the last-most consonant of the stem. Components of a compound word retain their intrinsic stress. Perhaps the non-final components' stress is reduced to secondary.

koze
kilsua
manil
tidzemanil
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