Derivation

This is where the work of building the language gets done.

Re: Derivation

Postby Dedalvs » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:51 am

Way too tired right now, but I just wanted to say, "I like" to Alex's post. Looking forward to really getting into it tomorrow.
Dedalvs
 
Posts: 90
Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Orange County

Re: Derivation

Postby PeteBleackley » Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:04 am

alexfink wrote:If we cut out Pete's case system as cases [or even if not], we could keep them around for more derivational operators. For example, we might try to use the genitive in ways which come out close to "adjectiviser" (which is a dangerous word to use -- have we decided "adjective" is even a word class?):
podji 'gold' (substance) > piodji 'made of gold'? (and then I guess audja 'gold-coloured'?)
txifom 'hair' > txixifom (using kadani's hiatus resolution) 'hair-covered'?
kami 'moon' > kiami 'nocturnal'? 'monthly'?
etc.


What if we have a derivational affix (or a set of such affixes) that, when applied to different cases of the noun, create different senses according to which case they've been applied to.

Pete
PeteBleackley
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:09 am

Re: Derivation

Postby kadani » Thu Apr 15, 2010 11:46 pm

That sounds positively complex! :D
Kaju'il vaixunus'tan viskoreja! Ines'il viskoreja!
Fight linguistic extinction! Invent a language!
Rejistanian word of the day
kadani
 
Posts: 131
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:45 am

Re: Derivation

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:07 am

alexfink wrote:If we cut out Pete's case system as cases [or even if not], we could keep them around for more derivational operators. For example, we might try to use the genitive in ways which come out close to "adjectiviser" (which is a dangerous word to use -- have we decided "adjective" is even a word class?):
podji 'gold' (substance) > piodji 'made of gold'? (and then I guess audja 'gold-coloured'?)
txifom 'hair' > txixifom (using kadani's hiatus resolution) 'hair-covered'?
kami 'moon' > kiami 'nocturnal'? 'monthly'?
etc.

... Ooh, and here's an idea. It would be quite cool if gosana 'crown' came first, and the old language had a form giosana 'crowned' which got substantivised to 'king', reflected as josana in the modern language by a very natural palatalisation process!
Could xami be 'month'?

EDIT: or txami. In the history that's fleshing itself out in my mind faster'n I can keep up with, initial dj was lenited to j without a corresponding tx > x -- we seem to have tx-initial words but no dj-initial right now. Not surprising in the least, there're several natlang examples of voiced affricates leniting but not voiceless. And either this old palatalisation affected only [kg]iV and not all [kg]i, or else there was another source of ki, since there's lots of ki- initial words. (Old Kenakoliku had a /k_w/ or a /q/ or some such?)


I think this all sounds like a good idea, and I think that we do have adjectives as a word class, because people kept proposing very adjectival words in the word creation thread, we could analyse them as verbs, but I don't think that was the intent. In my artlangs, I very often don't have adjectives, as I much prefer verbs, but I have no real problem with using them.
ave matyu at vijeréiisoblarre ayna
saluton mi nomas mateo kaj lingvokreas mi
je me nomme Matthew Turnbull et je fais la glossopoésie
Matthew Turnbull
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Derivation

Postby alexfink » Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:34 pm

Miatato, in the association thread, wrote:Agreed. Now we just need to add a diminuative and an augmentative to our derivational bits. :mrgreen:

My current favourite way to make the diminutive is (as found in various native North American languages) by a consonant affectation, applied across all the consonants in the word of a certain class, often toward postalveolar, usually together with or with fallback option a suffix (since you're not guaranteed to have a mutable consonant). So our diminutive could change all t ts d dz s z to tx tx dj dj x j, and in case this didn't hit anything append a suffixal -x.

(So maybe xingge is already 'scrape', and singge is really the base 'cut without severing'.)

Augmentative could be similar, too, but I'm not feeling a consonant shift that fits right now. (To pharyngealised Cs, or maybe lateral obstruents, would be nice if we had these...)
alexfink
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:44 pm

Re: Derivation

Postby Matthew Turnbull » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:37 am

I always liked that diminutive strategy, so I'm game for that. As for an augmentative, we could de-nasalize nasals or maybe nasalize stops, or something like that.
ave matyu at vijeréiisoblarre ayna
saluton mi nomas mateo kaj lingvokreas mi
je me nomme Matthew Turnbull et je fais la glossopoésie
Matthew Turnbull
 
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:16 pm

Re: Derivation

Postby alexfink » Tue May 04, 2010 11:05 pm

I have made a tab in the LEX spreadsheet, called "Morphology", with the information from the first post and several updates of mine. That's something everyone can edit. (David, you could replace the first post by a link to it.)

You'll see I've omitted the "derivational operation" go-. I don't think there's any operation there at all; as I've said it's jo- I think is the result of an operation! To tidy up the loose end I propose the noun goai, 'hat (broadly), headwear', found as an element in goaileta and in reduced form in gosana.

(I should make it clear that I don't mind having a non-productive derivational element with the function "symbol of". But I do think we can tell a better story if this is not it.)
alexfink
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:44 pm

Re: Derivation

Postby Miatato » Mon May 10, 2010 5:00 pm

Thanks for adding that tab. :)

I was hoping to get a couple of verbs from makea ("peace"), so I thought I'd throw some ideas out of my frying pan into the community fire:

makea >
mankea or manakea, to forgive; to make peace with, transitive (-n- or -na- following the first vowel?)
amakea (by way of amakeaa); to be peaceful, calm, at peace, intransitive (a- -a)

So, to pick another word, from baloj we could get abaloja, to make a loud noise.

I am not sure how to get "to make peace between (other parties)"...
Miatato
Site Admin
 
Posts: 162
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:00 pm

Previous

Return to The Language Factory

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron