Sentences About The Book.

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Sentences About The Book.

Postby Miatato » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:35 pm

This is a demonstration-by-translation thread. The vocabulary for this first set is somewhat limited, and it is sort of a verb-centric exercise as a whole. Some of these sentences are simpler than others. I am going to suggest that this as a sort of free exercise-- translate it all to demonstrate the grammar you've got in mind, just do one sentence, use dummy words, propose all the words without translating the sentences, or just propose a word that means "book". This is just a starting point for the sake of getting a few things out on the table where we can actually see what they might look like in practice. Have a little fun with it!

I have a book.
There is a book on the table.
Give the book to me!
I gave the book to him.
I always give books to him.
John will give Joe's book to Mary.
Mary, do you have Joe's book?
Mary has given the book to Joe.
Joe has the book that John gave to Mary.
The book isn't on the table. There is no book.
I don't want to talk about books.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby Uh-Oh » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:41 pm

I have a book.
    ji xomas kiuda.
There is a book on the table.
    kiuda zongs puai.
Give the book to me!
    totxos kiuda be ji!
I gave the book to him.
    ji au totxos kiuda be dau!
I always give books to him.
    ji ga totxos kiudam be dau.
John will give Joe's book to Mary.
    John vo totxos kiuda u Joe be Mari.
Mari, do you have Joe's book?
    Mari, a zai xomas kiuda u Joe?
Mary has given the book to Joe.
    Mari au totxos kiuda be Joe.
Joe has the book that John gave to Mary.
    Joe xomas kiuda zim John au totxos ing be Mari.
The book isn't on the table. There is no book.
    kiuda vi zongs puai. a vi kiuda.
I don't want to talk about books.
    ji vi vios kolis ua kiudam.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby kadani » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:46 pm

I see a few issues here:

zongs breaks the syllable structure we are supposed to have... totxos probably as well.

Iirc, no one argued for marking tenses.

In the first instance, you forgot to mark the secundative. ji au totxos kiudam be dau! If I interpret it correctly.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby Uh-Oh » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:58 am

kadani wrote:I see a few issues here:

zongs breaks the syllable structure we are supposed to have... totxos probably as well.

I'm still pretty fuzzy on where we are regarding syllable structure. Can someone sum up what's been agreed to?

kadani wrote:Iirc, no one argued for marking tenses.

Oops, that's right. I was thinking of au as a perfect aspect marker, but vo was definitely a future marker. I should have thought of an adverbial construct to convey the future tense.

kadani wrote:In the first instance, you forgot to mark the secundative. ji au totxos kiudam be dau! If I interpret it correctly.


I meant for the "-m" to be a plurosingular marker, not a secundative (accusative?); for the secundative, I thought a null marker and position after the verb would suffice.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby kadani » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:54 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:
kadani wrote:I see a few issues here:

zongs breaks the syllable structure we are supposed to have... totxos probably as well.

I'm still pretty fuzzy on where we are regarding syllable structure. Can someone sum up what's been agreed to?

AFAIK we had a (C)V(C) structure where the last C was from a limisted set. I remember that only n was specified but in the sound examples, other codas were used too.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby kadani » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:50 pm

Uh-Oh wrote:
kadani wrote:Iirc, no one argued for marking tenses.

Oops, that's right. I was thinking of au as a perfect aspect marker, but vo was definitely a future marker. I should have thought of an adverbial construct to convey the future tense.

BTW: Someone from the conlang chat explained to me that creoles often use an irrealis mood for the future, so we should maybe do that. So I suggest for that sentence: John setotxos kiuda u Joe be Mari.

Where the prefix se- is a marker for the irrealis mood.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby Miatato » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:25 pm

Perhaps 'zongas' instead of zongs? I liked 'totxos'.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby Uh-Oh » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:26 pm

kadani wrote:BTW: Someone from the conlang chat explained to me that creoles often use an irrealis mood for the future, so we should maybe do that. So I suggest for that sentence: John setotxos kiuda u Joe be Mari.

Where the prefix se- is a marker for the irrealis mood.


Sounds okay to me. I suggest that se be a separate particle, however: se totxos. This avoids (in writing and reading, at least) confusion between setotxos (= the irrealis of totxos) and setotxos (= a verb meaning "to pontificate to humourous effect").
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby kadani » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:17 pm

Miatato wrote:Perhaps 'zongas' instead of zongs? I liked 'totxos'.

Good idea!

Uh-Oh wrote:
kadani wrote:BTW: Someone from the conlang chat explained to me that creoles often use an irrealis mood for the future, so we should maybe do that. So I suggest for that sentence: John setotxos kiuda u Joe be Mari.

Where the prefix se- is a marker for the irrealis mood.


Sounds okay to me. I suggest that se be a separate particle, however: se totxos. This avoids (in writing and reading, at least) confusion between setotxos (= the irrealis of totxos) and setotxos (= a verb meaning "to pontificate to humourous effect").

I can live with that as well.
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Re: Sentences About The Book.

Postby Miatato » Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:24 am

Let's see what I pull out of the translation so far...

Pronouns:
ji -- I/me
zai -- you
dau -- he/him (or epicene 3rd person?)

Nouns:
kiuda -- book
puai -- table

Verbs:
xomas -- have
totxos -- give
zong(a)s -- to be at/on ?
vios -- want
kolis -- talk

Other Stuff:
be -- to (a recipient)
ua -- about
au -- perfective, as discussed
ga -- habitual?
u -- possessive
zim -- that (opening relative clause)
ing -- is this also related to the relative clause?
a -- I am going to have to think about its use in the question and in the last statement.
vi -- negation, no (as in a zero number of something)
-m -- plurosingular, as discussed

(And poor vo will probably be recycled as something other than future tense.)
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